Talk:Natalie Portman

Adjusting Portmans reflection on her early career

The currently cited article is from 2007 and states the following: "She later bemoaned that her parts in The Professional and Beautiful Girls prompted a series of offers to play a sexualized youngster, adding that it "dictated a lot of my choices afterwards 'cos it scared me ... it made me reluctant to do sexy stuff" which undermines her more recent statements regarding the roles she played and, given the context, could even be seen as an affront to her determination to, not only, escaping the sexualization and threats of (sexual) violence she was confronted with at a young age, but also her critique of the movie industry and it's role in the develepment of young women/girls in terms of finding their own identity and discovering their own sexuality.

A suggestion for an adjustment of this part would be: "She later would reflect on her part in The Professional criticially. Stating that, after receiving rape fantasies in fan mail and having her body and age of consent commented on publicially, "I understood very quickly, even as a thirteen year old, that if I were to express myself sexually, I would feel unsafe and that men would feel entitled to discuss and objectify my body to my great discomfort." Adding that she would go on to change both her behaviour and appearance to a more conservative standard, in order to feel safe. She would then also categoricially turn down any offer that resembeled those parts, going as far as rejecting any role that "[..] even had a kissing scene [...]".

Source for these proposed changes is a speech she gave in 2018, which can be watched here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXWHO14c88c Nahamo (talk) 16:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2025

WP:ECR ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:48, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Birth: Jerusalem, Israel Miki751a (talk) 22:01, 3 February 2025 (UTC) Not done... Article already says Jerusalem... - Adolphus79 (talk) 22:12, 3 February 2025 (UTC) I agree with the request. She was born in the city of Jerusalem under the Israeli government. Her country of birth should be stated as well as her city of birth. Blagai (talk) 10:37, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Agreed, it's ridiculous to omit it. Nausinikos (talk) 22:01, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2025 (2)

WP:ECR ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:48, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Change place of birth from "Jerusalem" to "Jerusalem, Israel". All other cities have their countries tied to them while Jerusalem is an exception. MangoMango22 (talk) 23:23, 3 February 2025 (UTC)  Not done: Block evasion of NetanelWorthy blocked by @Ponyo: - FlightTime (open channel) 23:30, 3 February 2025 (UTC) Can you justify the exclusion of the country of birth? It is clearly listed in the pages of other persons. What is the argument to not include country of birth in this specific case? Is there some dispute as to which country Jerusalem was under on June 9, 1981? 141.226.128.250 (talk) 15:25, 4 February 2025 (UTC) There is dispute over whether Jerusalem is under Israeli sovereignty or Palestinian sovereignty. Blagai (talk) 16:45, 4 February 2025 (UTC) No there isn't. The dispute is over East Jerusalem and not where Portman was born. Please fight your culture war somewhere else. Nausinikos (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Both countries claim the entirety of Jerusalem. Blagai (talk) 22:59, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Cite that, please Nausinikos (talk) 23:28, 4 February 2025 (UTC) https://www.gov.il/en/departments/ministry_of_foreign_affairs/govil-landing-page http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2302961.stm Blagai (talk) 23:40, 4 February 2025 (UTC) This is done purely out of antisemitism. Shaman007 (talk) 15:37, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Wikipedia:Assume good faith Blagai (talk) 16:09, 4 February 2025 (UTC) “Unless there is clear evidence” Seems like selectively removing a country of birth, essentially censoring a birth place arbitrarily, since Jerusalem was undisputedly under Israeli sovereignty at the time. This exclusion indeed might be seen as not based on straight facts but personal opinion. 2A0D:6FC2:6490:B800:D9CC:E861:E73B:DB20 (talk) 16:50, 4 February 2025 (UTC) That is not clear evidence. They might have wanted to wait for more opinions or just to avoid controversy altogether. Blagai (talk) 16:54, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Wikipedia's mission is not to "avoid controversy." It is to present facts and knowledge precisely regardless of controversy. Jerusalem has been under Israeli control since 1967 and in this exact case, Natalie Portman as listed on the "most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content" - IMDB : https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000204/bio/ has her place and country of birth unequivocally listed as Jerusalem, ISRAEL. Nstiac (talk) 17:28, 4 February 2025 (UTC) I agree it should be changed, but you need to assume good faith. I'll change it by this time tomorrow if no one objects. Blagai (talk) 17:46, 4 February 2025 (UTC) It is a contradiction to list her as having Israeli citizenship, but not listing her birthplace as Israel I think you are confusing the status of East Jerusalem (which was captured by Israel from Jordan in 1967 and is claimed by both the Israelis and Palestinians) for the full city of Jerusalem; West Jerusalem has been part of Israel since its founding. Suggest you avoid having a complex discussion here which is supposed to be about an actress's birthplace; for simplicity's sake, that birthplace should be Jerusalem, Israel given her citizenship HonestEditor51 (talk) 17:57, 4 February 2025 (UTC) I agree, but as I said, I think we should wait until tomorrow to see what the Consensus is. Blagai (talk) 18:07, 4 February 2025 (UTC) You don't need consensus to undo baseless vandalism Nausinikos (talk) 22:06, 4 February 2025 (UTC) It's not vandalism if it was done for a reason. Stop trying to argue whether or not consensus is needed and instead contribute to the conversation in a way you believe will reach the consensus you want. Blagai (talk) 23:06, 4 February 2025 (UTC) I'm fine with waiting for consensus, but suggest we keep the default version (listing city and country of birth as is done for all other biographies) and only undo it if consensus reverts to the opposite opinion (only listing city) HonestEditor51 (talk) 23:14, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Usual policy is to keep it as it was before the conversation started. So far no one has seriously objected to the change, so if it stays that way until tomorrow I will change it. Until then please don't break policy as it will only lengthen the conversation. Blagai (talk) 23:25, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

This article was targeted

WP:ECR ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:49, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
https://x.com/WikiBias2024/status/1886460032708903107 This X user has called for editing this article. It should be noted that this isn't the place to have this dispute, because this isnt an issue specific to Natalie Portman, but rather Wikipedia's coverage of the city of Jerusalem in general. So, a bunch of IPs vandalzing this article or otherwise edit warring, is pointless. JasonMacker (talk) 15:46, 4 February 2025 (UTC) I disagree, whether or not Jerusalem as a separate article is covered as a 'city in Israel' is irrelevant to this article, since Natalie Portman was born under the Israeli government with Israeli citizenship. Blagai (talk) 16:12, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Where did he assume bad faith? 2A0D:6FC2:6490:B800:D9CC:E861:E73B:DB20 (talk) 16:53, 4 February 2025 (UTC) (1) The fact that this is a wikipedia-wide issue doesn't preclude the discussion for this specific article. In fact, it is with these discussions that site-wide policies may be changed; (2) if Natalie Portman is born in Jerusalem under Israeli authority, it should be indicated her country of birth as Israel. Otherwise, we fall into the current situation where she doesn't have a country of birth according to wikipedia, which is misinformation; (3) More importantly, while the UN explicitly rejects Israel's sovereignty over East Jerusalem, it does not do so regarding West Jerusalem. Given that Israel exercises effective control over the territory, we should assume — unless there are specific facts or UN declarations to the contrary — that Israel had and continues to have effective sovereignty over West Jerusalem. Therefore, Israel should be listed as the country of birth for Natalie Portman or anyone born in West Jerusalem. My proposal would be to indicate specifically "West Jerusalem, Israel". Doctorprofetes (talk) 16:51, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Good point on the issue of East vs West Jerusalem. Natalie Portman was born in West Jerusalem, which is undisputedly recognized as the sovereign territory of the state of Israel by the international community. I would note that the city is incorporated as a single municipality, rather than as "East" and "West" Jerusalem, so my proposal would be simply to label it as "Jerusalem, Israel" as that is how it is labeled by the majority of the world. Gryphonclaw18 (talk) 17:58, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Support 'Jerusalem, Israel'. When using birthplaces, we should use the municipality name the country of birth uses, alongside the country itself. Blagai (talk) 18:11, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Please, let us be factual. WikiBias did not call at any point for this article to be edited. They merely pointed out what it's happening, with which many of us happen to agree. In this specific instance, Natalie Portman is listed as born in Jerusalem, ISRAEL throughout multiple sources, including authoritative ones like IMDB (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000204/bio/), https://www.natalieportman.com/natalie-portman-wiki/, And the New York Times who cites: "Ms. Portman, who is Jewish and was born in Israel, has starred in such hit movies as “Black Swan” and the “Star Wars” prequel trilogy. " - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/20/world/middleeast/natalie-portman-genesis-prize.html Along with People's Magazine who says "Because of her birthplace, Portman is a dual Israeli-American citizen." - https://people.com/all-about-natalie-portman-parents-8677146 Not to mention that this very Wikipedia article we are all referring to begins with the phrase : "Natalie Hershlag (Hebrew: נטע-לי הרשלג; born June 9, 1981), known professionally as Natalie Portman, is an Israeli-born American actress" - notice Israeli-born ? Leaving any doubts as per the country she was born into as Israel settled. The only ones disputing without evidence the fact the she IS an Israeli born person are the editors that removed it the first place. Or has anyone evidence that she is Palestinian or she believes herself to be Palestinian ? Thus, removing Israel from Jerusalem in this article is, per it's very own nature, going against the factual, biographical, objective, evidentiary and source based reality of the actress herself, which is in the end, the reason for this article. Nstiac (talk) 18:12, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Can we stop citing IMDB as source for this discussion, since it could never hold up in this type of discussion anyways, less confusion that way. - FlightTime (open channel) 21:07, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Even if the Twitter account in question did not explicitly call for edits to be made, this is undoubtedly a consequence of it. Biased recruitment to Wikipedia is against the policies, even though I do support this edit. Blagai (talk) 18:14, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Hmm. I'm not really sure about this, it's just an article that raised attention to the matter at hand. What if it were a blog or an editorial newspaper article would you have called it "biased recruitment" just because a few good samaritans took to correct what they see as wrong/unfair ? Don't take me wrong, there has to be limits and I don't know how many 0day editors came to make changes. But if it were not a massive number I'd just call it citizen action because they're not actually calling for anyone to do anything, they're just (lazyly I might add) pointing out an issue (instead of actually taking action through the appropriate means.) Anyways, I personally think the end result should be the same regardless of the ulterior motives anyone may have. For some of us may be plain fairness and objectivity, for others may be tradition, poitics, history or even social acceptance. But, if the edit is right, no matter what the reason is, it should be done. Nstiac (talk) 19:12, 4 February 2025 (UTC) I think the main issue is wikipedia:canvassing, which I believe the twitter post would qualify as. That doesn't mean that a change shouldn't be made, but its still an issue. Gryphonclaw18 (talk) 19:46, 4 February 2025 (UTC) I agree it's a very thin line separating the concept from real life given Twitter/X is not an "editor's only" platform and this Twitter/X post user handle (WikiBias). We must thoroughly consider if we want to actually ban possibly correct edits whenever they're raised openly in social media and the implications and repercussions this may have going all the way to freedom of speech. Will it come to a point where an opposing editor can point out that the issue was "raised in social media" thus invalidating an edit because it may be considered canvassing? Will we only be allowed to make edits to issues not present at all in social media ? This considerations will become more and more present given that all editors access social media nowadays and for the foreseeable future. Moreover who will decide and under what set of rules ? Should edits be considered on merit alone or context/background/referral should play a major role? Hopefully truth and common sense will prevail and this peer based community will keep objectivity as it's prime directive ;) Nstiac (talk) 20:29, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Wikipedia is the free encyclopedia, facts should matter more than consensus. Consensus here is based on popularity rather than reality. Facts favoring Israel will always be outvoted by anti-Israel activists. How many comments on the talk page will it take before the reality of "Jerusalem, Israel" becomes the final call on this bio page? Queens Historian (talk) 20:06, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Jerusalem's state as Israel's capital is contested by Palestine's claim for it and the lack of UN recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Since both countries claim the same city, the neutral thing to do is attribute it to neither country, hence why it's not "a city in Israel" in its own page. And as i said multiple times, if the consensus of changing it to "Jerusalem, Israel" stays until tomorrow, I will edit it. Blagai (talk) 20:59, 4 February 2025 (UTC) It doesn't matter if it's Israel's capital. West Jerusalem is in Israel, either way and the hospital where Natalie Portman was born is west of West Jerusalem. Even the PA doesn't contest West Jerusalem. Nausinikos (talk) 22:43, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Here is the canvassing, coming from another user in the same thread - https://x.com/NetanelWorthy/status/1886517932970102932 SubSeven (talk) 20:39, 4 February 2025 (UTC) There are multiple sources stating she was born in 'Jerusalem, Israel', and even if there weren't, I'd argue it's fine since it's common knowledge Jerusalem was under Israeli control when she was born. Either way, here are some of the sources I found with a quick google search: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/natalie-portman https://www.fandango.com/people/natalie-portman-541591/biography https://www.tvguide.com/celebrities/natalie-portman/bio/3000029590/ https://www.tvinsider.com/people/natalie-portman/ https://www.natalieportman.com/natalie-portman-wiki/ Blagai (talk) 23:04, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

Infobox

One reasonable point that's been made is that all of the Category:Actresses from Jerusalem articles have Jerusalem, Israel in the infobox except this one. Although "other stuff exists" isn't generally a useful argument, it's worth considering why it's only omitted here. I searched on insource:"Jerusalem, Israel" and gave up counting at 3000 articles using that construct. Very few editors were involved in the Talk:Natalie_Portman/Jerusalem_and_Israel discussions. There seems to have been a single editor who was adamant that it not be included. Perhaps a discussion with participation from a wider group of editors would be useful? Schazjmd (talk) 00:10, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

Is there a standing consensus one way or the other? I skimmed through Talk:Natalie Portman/Jerusalem and Israel, but didn't see much in the way of consensus building. Maybe an RfC is in order, and something added to the top like Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus? - Adolphus79 (talk) 03:03, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

It's very much worth noting that the idea that the status is disputed does not extend to where Jerusalem is actually located. It is located in Israel. There is of course a well-known controversy about the question of it's recognition internationally as the capital of Israel, but that's not about where it is located. As noted by Schazjmd, we use the construct "Jerusalem, Israel" all over the place, which is 100% correct becuase that's where Jerusalem is.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:37, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

Lol, the status of Jerusalem, one of the most hotly contested and intractable problems of the past 75+ years,has just been settled at the stroke of a keyboard by Jimbo Wales... adding this to the founding of wikipedia, there can't be many people who can claim two such major contributions to global society! Anyway ,for the avoidance of doubt, "Jerusalem is in Israel" is not an indisputable fact and our article at Jerusalem is very careful to make no such claim. While there might be a case that Portman specifically was born under Israeli jurisdiction and also that West Jerusalem is considerably less controversial than East Jerusalem,it remains the case that internationally, the city is regarded as unsettled and disputed. The status quo of simply listing the city without a country label in the infobox while going into more detail int the prose seems eminently sensible here since it neatly sidesteps the issue without giving support or opposition to any of the claims to the city.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:12, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

This conversation could continue until enough users can agree to the reality that Jerusalem is in Israel but scrolling up, you can see that ScottishFinnishRadish has closed three previous discussions on Jerusalem. No other national capital is subject to as much debate as Jerusalem. Queens Historian (talk) 12:29, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

Those were closed due to widespread WP:ECR violations. Discussion on this topic among extended-confirmed editors is welcome. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:51, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

I understand. So only extended-confirmed editors can decide if a discussion can continue. Queens Historian (talk) 13:57, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

This isn't the article about the status of Jerusalem as a whole, which is complex and disputed. This is the article about Natalie Portman, which makes it much simpler. Whether or not all Jerusalem is in Israel or not, the part she was born in was, right? Or is there a claim she was born in East Jerusalem? --GRuban (talk) 14:02, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

I reverted to the status quo pending further discussion, but I am not opposed to the word "Israel" being used in the infobox; use of that word here doesn't change the more complex situation covered in the Jerusalem article, and we are already making it clear in the lede that she is "Israeli-born." It would also be more consistent with most other people in Category:Actresses_from_Jerusalem. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:02, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

(Take deep breath, don't fangirl over Jimbo appearing in my Watchlist..) Not sure how many times I have reverted changes to support historical/discussed consensus, but people would rather edit war than to take the suggestion to "discuss on talk to achieve consensus". I am all in favor of change supported by discussion and consensus, regardless of my personal opinions. (Will reserve opining for an RFC discussion, if there is one.)--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 16:05, 5 February 2025 (UTC)